Helping Others Even When You Are In Pain with Jono Brown
Jono and Alyson Brown lost their daughter 2 days before their scheduled delivery due to a Chord-Wrap Incident. They were dumbfounded, to say the least. Jono found hope in Jesus through introspection, alone time, and prayer.
Little did he know that he would have to show up for somebody in their loss in the middle of his.
Listen to this powerful episode and make sure you get the episode guide to process the questions you may have after the episode.
GET THE EPISODE GUIDE
Episode 2 Transcript
Jono Brown 0:00
A guy who lost a leg never forgets that he doesn't have a leg anymore. That's just how his life is moving forward. And I think it's the same with these kinds of losses is that you can get to where the grief and just the oppressing sorrow and apathy and things that come with that eventually do fade. You never forget the loss was there.
Ryan Cole 0:21
Welcome to the Foreknown Men Podcast. My name is Ryan Cole, and I'll be your guide here as I help men navigate through the dark valley of miscarriage, stillbirth, and infant loss. Today, we're gonna talk to my good friend John Brown. If you listened to Episode One, you heard my story and how my wife and I lost our son within two weeks before our friends Allison and Jono lost their daughter. He and I are really different dudes. And so I thought it would be powerful for you to hear his story just as much as you heard mine, and how he actually grew in his faith after loss. So here's my interview with John Brown. Well, John, oh, thank you so much for joining me, man. How's it going?
Jono Brown 1:01
Oh, it's going pretty well. Thanks for having me on.
Ryan Cole 1:04
Absolutely. So let's just get right to it right off the bat. Let's talk about you and Alison and Cora, your your your daughter. What happened?
Jono Brown 1:14
Yeah, so for those of y'all who already listened to the first episode, you've already heard Ryan talk some about he and Kelsi, these losses and ours happened just a short time before theirs did. We had already gone through one normal pregnancy, we have an older daughter, Millie. And so this was our second pregnancy and everything had been normal the whole way through, we got up to a final checkup on a Friday afternoon, everything looked good. We were going to be induced the following Friday, if nothing else happened. And Tuesday night of that, following week, Alison had just mentioned that the baby wasn't moving as much as normal. And I just told her, I don't know, maybe talk to your OB check in with her. You know, didn't think anything of it. Because we were already I mean, we had a nursery prep, we had everything ready to go. So she called her the next morning, you know, the doctor didn't seem that concerned, called her in and then just had trouble finding a heartbeat on the ultrasound. So I was at work, I get a call. And just from the nurses tone, I can tell something's not great. So I drive from work over the hospital not knowing what I'm walking into and arrive to Alyson already crying having the nurse tell me that there is no heartbeat, the baby's already been lost. And this is a Wednesday before we thought on Friday, she's going to be induced and everything was gonna go all right. So we had to go through her been induced to the install birth the baby that night, we saw both Kelsi and Ryan, I believe that afternoon at the hospital. And yeah, we just didn't really know what it hit us because all of our thoughts were, you know, this late in the pregnancy, nothing can go wrong, and that we were just gonna, you know, be bringing our next daughter home that the end of that week. So, of course, you know, I was blindsided by all of that didn't have a whole lot of grief experience going into that before. So, you know, didn't really know how to react and how to deal with everything that was going on. Fortunately, we both have very supportive families. And within a day or two, both my parents and Allison's parents had come in to help us and we pretty much just handed off all responsibilities to our families and just allowed them to plan funerals, find grave plots, pick headstones, pick casket, things that, you know, we didn't really have the capacity to do. And we just kind of outsourced and said, Whatever you think is good. Please move forward with that, because we don't have the capacity to weigh in on that kind of stuff. And so that was the kind of start of the grief journey, because didn't really know what to expect. We started to discover there just wasn't a whole lot of material out there for people who have had miscarriage losses. And, of course, Alice and I are both wreck. So we weren't, you know, the best communication back and forth with each other. And as you start to discover, a lot of your friends don't know how to react, you don't know what to tell you. Some of them are trying to offer to do things, but you don't really know what would actually be helpful for them to do so. That was tough to know what to do as well. And so, as you alluded to last episode, me and you are different people and deal with things, different ways. And the way that I wanted to deal with things was primarily
Ryan Cole 4:23
to be a slam, I just want to make sure that you know that like Kelsey would Kelsey and Alison, you know, you're gonna learn on the podcast that like Kelsey and Alison get like, they get, like confused for being the same person. They they frankly, sometimes look more like sisters than their own siblings, you know. And they're very similar, right, but John and I when we present I think that the way that you probably handled it from being if I'm not trying to foreshadow, I think you're an introvert. I'm an extrovert, the way that you kind of processed that is a lot different than the way that I processed it?
Jono Brown 5:02
Absolutely. I don't think anyone has ever accidentally mistaken one of us. For the other one, unlike our spouses who have been mistaken for each other on multiple occasions, right? And so yeah, my, my go to was, try to find time on my own to read different things to just mentally sort through it by myself and just ask my parents, my wife's parents while they were in town help us out, just can you all handle things if I just go to the other room and just sit there and read for a little bit, or if I go out for a walk, or if I go for a hike on my own, because I needed to mentally work through things on my own and being around other people was not, it's not always what I want to do anyway. But especially during that moment, I did not want to talk it out with people, I did not want to try to share what I was going through because I didn't really know what I was going through. I needed to work that out for myself before I felt comfortable sitting down and you know, talking with other people, even people that I love, you know, like my parents, you know, Allison, her parents, my dad's a psychologist. So, I mean, I did ask him just some cursory questions. But even then, I can't even tell you what he told me. Because in the moment, you're not really remembering and processing things at a real high clip.
Ryan Cole 6:15
Yeah, that's, that's very interesting that you say that, because I feel like that was the same thing like grief has this massive. There's so much and really. So grief has this overall, like crazy cloud, that happens really quick. But then what I came to learn later in our journeys is that we It wasn't just like grief, we went through trauma. And that was something that like, was very eye opening for me, what what did your maybe your dad? Or what did you learn about, you know, our journey kind of going through the dramatic differences just right off the bat. Than then what longer? Longer term grief looks like? Yeah, I
Jono Brown 6:55
think the initial thing is just, you're not going to be prepared for it, no matter how it presents itself. And you can have ideas about what you would or wouldn't do in different situations. But this is not one of those that people try to predict. And you can speak probably more to the fact that every one of your losses, I imagine hit slightly differently than the previous ones. And having been through a loss doesn't mean it gets you that much ready for the next one. Other than intellectually, knowing more of what the road ahead looks like,
Ryan Cole 7:25
we were so blessed to have you guys in our lives. Because you had just lived out that journey. You had the playbook. I remember, when you guys were in our, our hospital room, probably after delivery. I mean, you guys were so fresh. I mean, it just it, I think it was even the same room. It was if I'm mistaken. You know, same room, same hospital, and that is just a really hard place to be. But thankfully, we had you. So how does that work? In going through your loss when you guys did and then having a friend go through it right after? What does that look like for you?
Jono Brown 8:05
Yeah, I mean, it was, of course, terrible, because our wives are pregnant. At the same time, we're thinking we're gonna end up having kids within, you know, a month, maybe six weeks of each other. And then we have our loss. And then less than five, six weeks later than Yeah, we're in the same hospital room at the same hospital, you know, trying to grieve with you all. And of course, we're not anywhere close to having figured stuff out on our end. But, you know, there is some comfort to knowing, hey, these people do know what I've been through, and they can at least understand the pain that I'm experiencing. Because every loss is different. And so having someone who's like, well, you know, I lost a grandparent or a parent or, you know, some other type of grief, all groups are different. But I think there is something that can bond people together when they share the same type of read, even though every story is going to come out different.
Ryan Cole 8:58
So take me back to when you guys first lost Cora, had you guys ever experienced anything hard before? Or is this like the first major mountain that you guys had had to climb together?
Jono Brown 9:10
Yeah, I'd say it was definitely the hardest thing and the first major thing that we had been through. I mean, we hadn't had any significant losses in either one of our families. We hadn't personally been through any significant losses, the family members or you know, high levels of trauma, and either Allison's life or my life. So just trying to deal with something of that scale for the first time and dealing with it for the first time with your spouse who was going through it at the same time was a big learning curve, because of course, I didn't know what else needed. She didn't know what I needed. And we weren't great at being able to articulate what we needed back and forth, because we were still trying to figure it out and just kind of keep our head above water at the same time.
Ryan Cole 9:51
I'm curious with that situation. So you're grieving and your wife is grieving? How hard is that?
Jono Brown 9:58
Yeah, it was tough. Do you have Have a lot of grace for each other. Because, you know, you have to have grace and marriage every day anyway. But when you know you're not at your best, and you know she's not at your best, and you know, you're going to ask it in or accidentally ask a question that comes off more callous than it actually is, or you're going to mention something, and it's going to be misconstrued, and it's not the way you intended it. And you just have to realize that you are not trying to hurt the other person, they're not trying to hurt you that ultimately, you are in it together. And trying to make sure that you just let the other person know, here's where my heart is. I'm checking in with you. Is there anything you need? Or is there anything I could do or not do? That would be helpful? Because otherwise, a lot of days it was No, I don't really know what you could do. But you know, thanks for asking, what about you? And I would say, also, it was a tough day, but I don't really know what could have made it better. Thanks for asking. And that's where we lifted a lot of days. But at least we were intentional about every day. At the end of the day after we had had our older daughter go to bed asking. Okay, where are you at today? You know, how good was it? How rough was it? You know, what insensitive thing? Did someone say at work? What insensitive thing, did someone text you today? And sometimes just talking through those and just reminding each other? Well, I'm sure that you know, this brand meant well when they said this, but that is a pretty insensitive thing to say. Yeah,
Ryan Cole 11:20
yeah, that happens a lot, doesn't it? More than you would imagine. But I think that that's a maybe you make a good point, which, which is what I love about what you just said was communication had to be the number one thing that you guys really fought for. And you set aside a particular time of day. Were there days where you just didn't have the right words? Or was it always great communication? Or what does that look like for you guys?
Jono Brown 11:45
Yeah, sometimes it was good communication. Sometimes it was just like, it's been a long day, I just want to go to bed? Can you handle bedtime? Or can you handle putting our daughter down tonight? Or can you pick up dinner, or who's bringing the meal train tonight. And other times, it was me just saying, hey, on Saturday, can I leave at 7am and go out hiking by myself, just to get out away from everything and have three or four hours, and then I'll come back and I can tag in and then you can go, you know, generally meet with friends, be around some close people, and just be with them. Because that's what seemed to help her more, I really didn't want to be going around friends that didn't really want to be hanging out getting the group together. But the fact that we could articulate that back and forth, and then if I said, Hey, I really would need some time this weekend to get out and get away from stuff. And I think every single time she did whatever she could to make that happen. And if she said, I really want to go sit down with this friend or have dinner with him or go out to their house after dinner. And I think we tried to make that happen almost every single time as well. Just trying to give the person that they actually knew what they needed, trying to facilitate that as best as we could. All right, let's
Ryan Cole 12:57
talk about you in in healing first, any idea? What day it was when you both were like and we're done? We're good. We're healed? Was there like a day or? I know, it's a joke. But like, I don't think there isn't really a day where you wake up, you're like, oh, today's the day right.
Jono Brown 13:18
Now, there is no day that you wake up and say today today, one of the examples I like to use is from CS Lewis. And he tells kind of a parable about a man who loses his leg. And then people ask him, well, have you gotten over it now that you have your prosthesis and now that you can walk again, or now that you can climb mountains again, and it's not that you can move on and not that you can't live a thriving life again, but the guy who lost a leg never forgets that he doesn't have a leg anymore. That's just how his life is moving forward. And I think it's the same with these kinds of losses is that you can get to where the grief and just the depressing sorrow and apathy and things that come with that eventually do fade. And you can get back to having happy times in your life and being a functioning person and being a loving you know, great husband, adult worker, whatever it is, but you never forget the loss was there.
Kristy 14:20
The Foreknown Men Podcast is a program of Foreknown Ministries, a nonprofit Ministry made possible by people throughout the world that deeply believe healing can come through Jesus after loss. These people give monthly so parents can grow in their faith when pain wants to break them down. I'm Kristy from Colorado Springs and I am part of the Foreknown Community to join me and others in this incredible move of God or to give a one time gift go to ForeknownMinistries.org/donate today.
Ryan Cole 14:58
you know you said you you would spend a lot of time in the mountains, you would go to the mountains, and you would hike and you sometimes you would just sit. What? What does that look like for you? What did your healing journey look like? Were you? Were you reading scripture? Were you praying the whole time? Like, what does that look like for you?
Jono Brown 15:16
Yeah, it was a combo of several things. Because I was never angry after the loss, I was just profoundly sad and, you know, kind of apathetic feeling, and just couldn't keep thoughts together, just like they were racing around and needed a way to kind of quiet my mind. So I didn't have, you know, the crisis of face face that some people go through right after this. But more than ever, I needed to know that God was real, and that the things that I believed were true, because I had kind of a cursory belief that all of it was true. But now I needed to dig in and make sure I can see for myself, Where does it say that God is always good? Where does it say that he loves me through every situation? Because if you had asked me a week before, I would have said, Sure, I believe all these things. But now it meant more to know it and feel it more than just kind of a cursory knowledge of it. And so that was the main thing that I was trying to get through Scripture through reading other books, is, can I find some of the answers to the question that I'm having? Can I feel that reassurance so that I can be sure that the faith that I've had, is not in vain, and that it's going to carry me through now the more difficult times that I've ever experienced?
Ryan Cole 16:31
Would you say that your faith grew during your loss?
Jono Brown 16:35
Absolutely. I'd say I had more times that I felt close to God, or I had more meaningful encounters with God, during the months and years after our loss than I ever had before. Not that I had never had any of those experiences. But I was now making the time to go out and find places that I could read that I could sit that I could pray that I could just be there waiting to hear, you know, God impress something upon me, which when things are going good, it's much harder to take the time, or people who are less disciplined, like I was at that point, are just not taking the time to go out and allow God to speak to them. During the good times. It's the bad times that make you realize, hey, this is what I need. I think it's Rick Warren's quote that says, you never know God is all you need until God is all you have.
Ryan Cole 17:32
It's good one. Like if you say, Hey, I learned this one or two really important thing about Jesus during this time. What would it be?
Jono Brown 17:42
Yeah, I'd say for me, the times that I felt like, I felt Jesus closest to me, or I could feel God and pressing things on me, were times that I blocked out, gotten away, and sat and prayed and just said, you know, God, I don't know what I need. I don't know how to process the things I'm going through. I just need you to help me right now. And so one of the scriptures that I kept coming back to was first Kings 1911 to 13, God instructs Elijah to go up in the mountain tells him he's going to pass by, and he needs to go in this case. And there's a strong wind that tears up the rocks on the mountain, followed by an earthquake, followed by a fire, and it says in each of those things, God was not in them. But then there was a delicate, whispering voice. And that's when Elijah heard God, and something about that scripture really connected with me. And that's what I tried to do is get out, be still be quiet. And just listen for that delicate, soft voice or whisper, you know, depending on whatever translation you're reading. And those were the times that I felt like whatever I had been writing down in a journal, whatever I'd been praying about whatever music I had been listening to, to try to kind of calm all the angst in my spirit. That's when God would meet me in that place. And give me the thing that I needed. I think another thing I took away was Matthew 634, Jesus talks about, you know, not worrying about tomorrow, because tomorrow has enough words of its own, and having to rely on God, day by day, because that Scripture does not say, Don't worry about, you know, tomorrow, and the next week, and the next year. It says, Don't worry about today, God will give you enough for what you need today. But it doesn't promise he's going to give you enough for the entire week, or for the entire rest of the month or the entire rest of the year. It says every day he will give you what you need, which is not the way that we like to plan things out. We like to just you know, get it all in the bank and not worry about it. But having to come back to God every single day. Actually, the previous verse and Matthew 633 talks about seeking first the kingdom of God. And I think that was a big thing that I had to realize. If I go to God first. Then I can have what I needed to get through each day, even the really difficult days. But tomorrow, it's not like I've got enough in the bank. I can just skip out again. I've got to come back again. If I'm gonna keep taking steps forward and keep feeling like I was actually processing through things and making some positive headway,
Ryan Cole 20:07
do you feel like God left you anywhere? Or do you feel like he was with you that whole time?
Jono Brown 20:11
No, I felt like God was closer to us in that time than you know I had ever seen before. And it was probably because I wasn't always looking for him every day at every moment before. But again, with that intentionality where now you feel like you know what, I have to have God in my life, I have to have Jesus with me and the Holy Spirit interceding for me because sometimes, it's not coherent words, it is just groans, that the Holy Spirit is going to intercede on your behalf and relay, you know, the anguishes of your heart. Because you can't put them into words and you can describe even to God what you need.
Ryan Cole 20:46
So let me ask you this. What would you tell a dude, who's going through a miscarriage right now you've lived it, you've led me through it. We've, we've been, you know, doing this together for a while. But like, what's the number one thing that you're like you I just want you to know this right off the bat.
Jono Brown 21:04
Yeah, I would think the number one thing that helped me the most, and that I still come back to on a weekly basis is that God loves you. God loves your spouse, God loves the child, that your last God is love, in the same love that you feel for the child that your last is the same love that God has for you. He is there with you. He is weeping with you, and he wants to restore you back again. But it's easy for us to project our own interpretations of who God is, or our own human frailties and flaws. And, you know, maybe fathers who didn't do the greatest job emulating that. And I think our opinion in the way that we see God can distort our ability to heal. Because we have a faulty view, a few God is or for coming in. And we're already not so sure about the God thing to begin with, then it's going to be really hard to now put all your faith in something that, you know, it's kind of a passing fancy to begin with. And so if you are listening, and you don't believe that God is love, and he loves you, and that despite the hard things that you have now been through, that he is still love, and he still is for you, then I would say that would be the thing to dig in. To first is trying to figure out, How can I believe this in my life? What do I need to read? What do I need to see? Who do I need to speak with, to try to feel that love in my life? Because without that, I don't know how you can move on and move through something like this. If you don't believe God is good, and you just believe it's all for nothing. And then how could you not have despair?
Ryan Cole 22:41
What did you learn about being a husband during this time? That's not I'm throwing this this curveball at you. But, you know, men have this different situation when it comes to miscarriage and stillbirth. And that we didn't carry the child, which is just different, like we just have different things that are happening, right? So what did you learn about being a husband, during that time,
Jono Brown 23:03
I would say the first thing is that you can't fix things for your spouse, it's going to be a long journey. And they're going to have good days, and they're going to have bad days. And they're not always predictable. And you aren't always going to be able to know what's coming. And so being able to have grace for them, and to try to support them, that this is the you know, for better or for worse part of the marriage now that things are worse, and it might take a lot longer than you want. But you might have a bad day when they're having a decent day. And they're going to hopefully be there for you, or at least be trying to make the attempt there. But your job is to try to support your wife and to love your wife as best as you can. And I think that starts with communication, because it's going to be hard enough to know what they want during the great times, especially during the loss, you're really not going to know what they're going to need.
Ryan Cole 23:52
That's so true. Unfortunately. It's like a communication gap that we always have to figure out. But like I think specifically in grief, that communication has the potential to widen, like, really, really big. And if you're not intentional, like you said, spending that time to just at least check in daily. And sometimes you're right, like sometimes we want to fix it. And this is not a situation we could fix. Right? This is a situation where we can wait with you and be with you. That's about it. That's about where it's at. But as men, that is so hard to just be there and do nothing. I want to fix it. I want to take care of this. You're my You're my wife, right? And I want to I want to make sure that you don't have to sit in this pain, but now we're both sitting in this pain together. What are we gonna do about this?
Jono Brown 24:43
Yeah, like Job and his friends. The best thing that friends did was show up and sit with him. And then as soon as they started talking after a few days, it all went downhill because they all had bad advice. But just being there was what was important.
Ryan Cole 24:56
started off strong, right?
Jono Brown 24:58
That's right. Let's take a look.
Ryan Cole 25:00
Yeah, yeah, yeah. went downhill from there. Yeah. All right, well, so anything else that you want to that you think that we should add to this?
Jono Brown 25:09
Oh, I'd say you if you're already here listening to the podcasts, and at least you're trying to take proactive steps, you're trying to find biblical ways to heal. And to get back on your feet after, you know, a recent loss, long standing loss that you know, is still causing a wedge between you and God between you and your spouse, between you and other relationships that you have. And so first kudos for just tuning in listening, and being proactive and not just sitting on your hands and not trying to heal. But I'd say, you know, there's obviously no one right path to healing. Ryan's journey looked a lot different than mine did. But I think the overlapping points are that, as long as you keep turning to God, that's when the good stuff was happening. When we turned to anything else, it went downhill and was not as beneficial for either one of us or for our family structures as a whole, when we tried to rely on other things, which is hard, because you don't always have the capacity to at the end of a long, hard work day after a loss when you already don't feel like being at work and doing family life and doing all the other things to then try to make meaningful steps forward in your own life.
Ryan Cole 26:18
Well, thanks, man. I appreciate you joining me and, you know, praying for Alison in your beautiful family and continue to grow in what God has for you.
Jono Brown 26:28
Absolutely. Thanks for having me on.
Ryan Cole 26:29
Man, there's so much good stuff in there. Thank you, John, for sharing your story with the world. And there's a couple things that I kind of picked up in there that I want to ask you to spend some time and reflect on these questions. Okay. I've included an episode guide in our show notes for you to go over. And here's what I want you to kind of chew on think about and process through first. Where do you need to go to process your grief? For Gianna was the mountains? What about you? How can you and your spouse create a connection time daily? It's really important. And number three, what are you turning to outside of God? To help you process? This is a trick question because I also want to follow it up with is that really working? So here's what I want you to do. Go to foreknown ministries.org/podcast and get the worksheet to answer all these questions. Like I said, I'll include it in the show notes as well. Thank you for listening to the foreknown men podcast until next time, keep praying, asking God to help and set aside time for your spouse open up to her and let her in. She wants to know what you're thinking and feeling and Jesus. Well, he wants to be with you. In that time to let him I promise it'll be worth it. God bless.
Foreknown Ministries 27:45
You've been listening to the Foreknown Men Podcast. When you go through a pregnancy loss. The pain can be overwhelming, and you may not know where to turn for support at Foreknown Ministries we guide men and women to process grief through encouragement, community and ultimately the hope that Jesus has for their future. If that's you message us through for known men on Instagram or text for men. That's the number four and men 719-626-8486. You can also go to ForeknownMinistries.org to get help now. And if you've enjoyed this episode and think it would help someone out please share it. When you subscribe to The Foreknown Men Podcast we will send you more episodes as we release them. As with all podcasts when you rate us or send us a review, it helps us get better and connect with more people that need to hear about the love of Jesus and pregnancy loss. Thank you for listening. We know Jesus wants to meet with you in your pain. Turn to Him and we promise you'll find everlasting hope. God bless
